In bocca al lupo with New York. I'm a native and it just isn't what it was. I know everyone says that, but since 9/11 it feels as though it's been colonized by the rest of the country and has lost a lot of its New Yorkness. Plus the rapacious real estate industry has screwed everyone over, causing good places to close and banks/Starbucks/chains to open in their place. Rents are through the roof, and be prepared to spend $20 on a cocktail or a pitiful pour of wine.
You sound EXACTLY like John. He was born and raised in NYC and loves it like a brother. But he will be the first to admit it has been raped and colonized by property developers. The last time I was there, which was about ten years ago, I was appalled by the yogurt shops/banks/Starbucks epidemics.
But I also have a sneaking suspicion that NYC is changing yet again. That's the thing about that city. It never closes, and it never stands still.
Let's hope it's all for the good. My two adult daughters live there (we're retired and live in northern Umbria part-time and are clearing out our NY house. While my kids are Italian citizens, I don't expect them to live in the EU anytime soon.
Funny, I disagree with you on both Rome and New-York. I still adore Rome. I don’t live there, but I visit as often as I can, and stay in Centro storico. I was there just a fortnight ago, and it was as magical as ever. And New-York is my sweet home and always will be, even though I wasn’t born there, and don’t live there any more. I never found it draining, on the contrary, it was energizing (yes, it can be infuriating, but so can any place in the world). Anyway, by way of reference, I now live in London and have a place in Umbria. This is a good combo for me, although I don’t like London nearly as much as I loved Gotham. Umbria is a gentle and genteel place, where Italy’s drawbacks are not felt so acutely.
I love Umbria! We live there, too. There are no parts of Umbria that aren't wonderful. But a place in London AND Umbria pretty much gives you the best of both worlds, doesn't it? You see, I love London. Gotham, less so. Umbria, always.
I have found that the best way to get around Italian bureaucracy, at least at the local level, is befriend (or, even better, employ) a well-plugged local. Someone who has relatives and friends inside the comune, the questura, ASL, vigili of this and that, etc. ))
John's been here for thirty years. His Italy is impeccable, and he knows everybody. We can't go to Rome without running into people he knows. But...this is Italy. If you're in a comune that isn't run like well-oiled machinery, you get a less-than-favorable result. Sadly.
You’d think so, but after 12 years in London, I still don’t feel as much at home here as I used to in NYC. Maybe it’s just me. But moving back would make it much more difficult to travel to Umbria. A two-hour flight to Perugia for £20 isn’t something you can possibly hope to replicate from the US. As Dorothy Parker (or was it someone else?) said, “The best thing about London is Paris”. For me, it’s Perugia. ))
Jan 13, 2023·edited Jan 13, 2023Liked by Stacey Eskelin
Yeah, but...
My wife and I moved here and became permanent residents about a year and a half ago and things have been pretty smooth all things considered. The primary reason is that we are retired and don't have to find work. Not having money to support a reasonable Italian lifestyle would amplify all the inconveniences and perturbations that you describe so well. Amplify them into a song of so-long.
But there is also this: we live near a small bustling comune of about 17000 souls, in a frazione where people are property proud and friendly. We are of a certain age so we avoided living up a hill and we avoided living in a place where the population is shrinking as the younger folk depart for other places.
We have access to all manner of stores and services where we can provide for daily needs, and we're close to larger centers (Foligno, Perugia, Gubbio, Ancona) where we can find most other things we may want or need, the better to furnish our lives.
The point is, that the place where one choses to live in Italy is hugely important because the problems of the shrinking, ill governed, poorer places do not have the financial means of mitigating the worst of the things you list. In our locale, we drive around manifold potholes but we know eventually they will be leveled by a local crew who service the hundreds of miles of roads that stitch this comune together.
We we can work around store opening/closing hours, holidays etc. - mostly by means of doing other stuff when we can't shop. Yard work, desk work, napping...hell even a little hanky panky from time to time. We don't have to contend with the rigors of hill and stair climbs, and, in our case, the local bureaucracies are staffed with pretty competent people, because living here, they also have a life and need their lives to move along too.
Question: if you and John had ways and means of earning a good, stable income, would you be going to NYC?
ALL TRUE. Everything you just wrote is 100% on target. It does matter where you plant your tent poles. Question: did you just luck out or were you somehow able to divine the truth about these places before you moved there? Because it seems to me you made some very wise choices.
If John and I were able to earn a sufficient income, we would not be leaving. That said, he's a native New Yorker with a robust network of people there. Also, NYC is the center of the jazz universe. So, it makes sense for him. For me, less so, but I'll be closer to my kids, and that's a huge plus.
It all boils down to this: we are too young to retire and too old to work at McDonald's ;-)
When my daughter (about to turn 37) decided to come from Vancouver, Canada to go to school here she was 17. She attended the Universita per Stranieri, worked a while then got a degree at the University of Perugia. She met and married a man whose father was born in Gualdo Tadino and, although they returned to Canada where they bore two children, they returned here to live.
My wife and I realized that as we got older our trips to Italy would be fewer and fewer so we decided to uproot ourselves, already in our 70s, and move here. We ended up in Gualdo area because that's where they are. It just turned out to be as good as it is. If they were living somewhere else, that's where we'd be, and probably, if a good sized town was close by, just as happy.
I am slowly losing the bad habit of comparing the Italy we live in with what we had in Canada. One does this by becoming fatalistic and cynical in the Italian way, which is to say, we turn our things to that which we can do, and look for the humour in all our frustrations. Piano Piano is our adopted motto.
At the same time, while not rich by any means, we have enough to sustain a good and healthy lifestyle here, maybe better than we could afford in Canada, bearing in mind we are not ostentatious in any part of our lives. I feel badly that you and John were not able to make a go of it here, but I understand completely. You will feel the constant tug of Italy while you are gone, and you may surrender to it once you have ways and means. Maybe "will surrender" is a better way of putting it.
I will keep reading and responding to your beautiful posts.
I am so glad of your friendship, Vian. You are truly a "find and a keeper." And I am very familiar with the Gualdo Taldino area! John used to teach there. It's beautiful. In fact, I used to joke with John and say, "Oh, are you going to Walter Turkey?" The pun being "tachino" = turkey. Har har.
Look, I have every intention of coming back when we ARE retired and can enjoy the passive income one needs in order to survive here. That we have held on as long as we have, especially as creatives, feels like victory. Frankly, I don't know how we did it.
You're right about all of it, of course--I will feel the constant tug of Italy. I already do. I love this country. Life is full of ups and downs, hills and valleys. If I come out of it with a story, however, that's the whole point of life AND Cappuccino.
I would say the hills in Spoleto are daunting, but the hills in Amelia are just as daunting, and we don't have your elevators. What we do have is a community of remarkable expats, many of whom are artists, writers, directors, actors, etc. Few expats here don't have an impressive metier.
Unless you have serious jobs already lined up? As bad as Italy is (and I can add to your list but won't) the US right now is a shit hole. No money here? Honey you are rich beyond your wildest dreams compared to how it will be stateside.
My friends regularly send me pictures of prices in the grocery store. September one of those plastic cartons of fresh spinach was 8.99. Last week 9.99 ON SALE. This was in Arizona where they grow this stuff so there is no transportation tax.
Housing. There is this ýoutube guy goes around NYC asks people what they pay in rent and then tours the apartments. 1800 to 2000 for an apartment with the EXACT SAME DIMENSIONS as a prison cell. 8x10 feet not meters. The 2k one is 10x12. Take a look at them. John's not big enough for 2? Probably a mansion compared yo US.
Taxes. Yes Italy's top rate is 43%. But we all know nobody pays that. First of all find me anyone in Italy with the exception of Tom Ford and Clooney who make 50k. Also that 23 to 43 %rate is inclusive.
Let me count the ways that 43% saves you money. Self employed in US 13% on top of income tax for social security. Work for a company they pay half you pay half. PLUS another 6% for Medicare. Oh did I forget health insurance? I worked for the post office. Not the 800 pound gorilla in the room its the 8000 pound gorilla. Largest private employer in the USA. My currently employed USPS friends? Their monthly premium average cost among all providers is 350 a month. Other companies? 500 a month. Self employed? 1000 a month even with Obama care. And that is why about 25% of Americans have no health coverage.
Even with the platinum plans. Deductibles and co-pays? Mine averaged $4000 a year. And the insurance company decides what I get to have in terms of care, not my doctor. That's with dual coverage. My husband's employer Gannet provided insurance too. Adding him to my plan and me to his proved cheaper than single premiums in terms of uncovered costs like those deductibles I mentioned. Our final years stateside I counted every penny spent on medical. Turns out we could have bought Cadillac every 7 years if we had Italian level health care costs.
Health care itself. HMOs stateside make ASL look like Mayo clinic (which doesn't take insurance BTW so it's truly rich and famous care).
My experience with HMOs is 50% of the medical staff is NOT Doctors and nurses. People seeing you? Writing prescriptions? They are Physicians assistants, nurse practitioners. A little fact that is carefully not emphasized. PPO plans same s**t different "doctors". Here at least you see a doctor!! Yes you may have to wait for a routine care item. But get a lump on your breast? 12 hours later mammogram and 12 days max you can be on an OR table. My sister in law? 12 weeks she finally had her surgery
Loneliness. I call it the 5 year syndrome. You go back home, everyone is thrilled to see you, they throw parties, "we will get together soon" then crickets. Dead crickets. Their lives have changed, they no longer include you. You will be ghosted except for the big 3. Christmas or New Years (not both) 4th of July, and Thanksgiving. No one meets for coffee or drinks.
I lived in Arizona one of those states people move to. You know sun 360 days a year, fruit dripping off trees? Within 5 years 50% of the people who move to Atizona leave.
Garbage have you been to NYC lately? Or any American city lately? There the "garbage" is human beings. There is homelessness in Italy. I am not blind to it. But compared to the US it is non existent. Literally fewer people live on the street in 3rd world countries.
Bureaucracy we expect it to work. And it does there. But who wants the only thing that functions to be Bureaucracy?
Finally and most horrifically gun violence. Last week a 6 year old shot his teacher. 31,000 school age children have experienced gun violence since Columbine. Washington Post this week.
The only thing cheap in America is gasoline and lives.
Everything you wrote is true. But there are no jobs for us here. None. So even if NYC is hell on earth, which I am perfectly prepared for it to be, the very fact of being able to get a job makes it the only "choice" we have. In truth, we don't have a choice. We don't want to go. We have to go.
NYC will NOT be hell on Earth, it’s a fantastic. place. The only problem is that, from what I hear, it has not yet fully bounced back after the pandemic.
It's pretty much back to "normal" (whatever normal means). Though midtown office real estate is suffering, with most former office dwellers working remotely.
That is true, in some areas...but I've personally never felt threatened. As in any city, it pays to remain aware, keep valuables close (or at home), etc.
Neither has poor Italy! I just read today that NYC is planning to put a CASINO--a freaking casino!--on the top floor of Sak's Fifth Avenue. Now that weed is legal, too, it would seem that Manhattan is planning to live up to its reputation as Gotham ;-)
I promise you, NYC isn't hell on earth. Anywhere you (the editorial "you") live will be as you make it. There are pros & cons to it (and everywhere else on the planet). Some love it; some hate it. It will be what "you" make of it. See you soon! 😊
1) healthcare costs: when I retired from teaching in 2015 my district was paying $1,500 a month for my family insurance premiums. But don't worry...state Republicans stepped in an required me to pay a larger portion of my insurance sucking $7,000 out of my salary that could have been spent in our local economy.
2) Last April (2022) I returned to the US for several months and was appalled at the prices in the grocery stores! Filling just the baby seat section of the cart cost me $80, with no meat in there. I can eat for two weeks on that amount of money in Italy. And there's been no significant price increases on my Conad since the beginning of the Russian invasion of Ukraine.
If you're in or close to a major city, that might very well be the case. But who knows? Maybe it's just my part of Umbria. All I can do is report on what's happening here.
When I return from Italy and its reasonably priced wine, it just KILLS me to pay the NYC prices for a cocktail/wine/prosecco. What we pay in NYC for one glass, would pay for an entire bottle (more likely, two) in Italy. The mark-up here is criminal.
Right on about the music scene and the Kafka-esce bureaucracy. I think I’m a bit more forgiving after 20 years because I’ve also seen the other side of the coin many times, and don’t find the States much better. I’m also a citizen, and less marginalized.
Having lived years Rome also gives me more perspective, so I see it as a more complex situation. But you nailed a couple of my least favorite things about it.
I personally love that mom and pop shops give zero fucks about accommodating people. They work really hard and make a choice to earn less but maintain a quality of life. I respect that and try to apply it to my own work as much as possible. It can cause headaches, but I have learned to think more like then, meaning I expect to find stuff closed and am happily surprised when it is not 😅
The dirt bikes are ridiculous, but so are the car sound systems in the States. For me 6 of one, half a dozen of the other.
I have met lots of folks who try to clean public spaces, only to get shot down by local politicians because no one will take the garbage they collected. There are serious barriers to civility, but it’s the system mostly (one where no one has the money for trash disposal because it is so expensive to deal with for towns and cities) and a minority of bad actors, not the average Italian. Cheap trash disposal also has bad consequences (like aluminium cans going into garbage dumps in the States), so, again, I see both sides.
Maybe this is why people reacted so strongly to your piece: when you look deeper, Italians do so much more good than bad. And you’d be hard pressed to find a culture with no faults.
But you are grieving, my dear, and if pointing out the warts on your soon to be ex-boyfriend’s face helps even one bit, then I’m all for it 🤗
LOL! You're funny. Yes, absolutely grieving. But these are views I've held for a long long time now and have nothing to do with grieving. I mention how much I love the mom-and-pop stores in the complement to this Cappuccino, which you can read here: https://cappuccino.substack.com/p/here-are-the-12-things-i-will-miss
Keep in mind that unlike you, I am not a dual passport holder. Neither is John. We're not Lampedusa, far from it, but we aren't exactly privileged either. And to be fair, I received strong support for the article, too. I just didn't expect what attacks there were to be so personal. Nothing I wrote couldn't be backed up with receipts, which is why I wrote it.
I think farming is smart, BTW. We have no idea what's coming, especially in a country that's struggling anyway, and "just being able to eat" is no small thing. At least your tillage will bear fruit, dear Rachel.
Jan 13, 2023·edited Jan 13, 2023Liked by Stacey Eskelin
I have to admit that as much as I would have loved to live in Italy, over the past many years I have learned about the horrific Italian bureaucracy. I am not a patient person to begin with, by any means (perhaps that's why I thrive in NYC!), so trying to deal with all of the paperwork required to get residency for an ER visa or any other type of visa or even citizenship (for which I learned I don't qualify after all) was eschewed long ago.
The Schengen Agreement's edict of 90 days in/out works for me! And because I am impatient, the bureaucracy of trying to get even the simplest things done would make me want to go postal. Spending several months there at a time has been wonderful, but coming back home to the US with all of its efficient conveniences is heaven. I intend to have the best of both worlds in the future.
You made the right decision. It took me a LONG LONG time to clear the miasma from my adoring eyes, but ... yeah. For non-Italians, Italy is sometimes best enjoyed in small manageable chunks of time, like pie. NYC is draining; Italy is restorative. But too long a period spent in Italy, and it no longer becomes restorative, but draining.
In fact, that’s why I mentioned my privilege before. It’s not lost on me that it is a luxury to be a dual citizen and not have my everyday life (or love life) conditioned on a piece of paper.
I’m pulling for you and John - and hope someday to come visit you in the Big Apple 💕
The no-see-ums bit gave me a serious case of the wiggins (the Brits might say "collywobbles.") I've been snarling for days because I had to order a bag of adult cat-chow to be delivered, rather than find it available in the stores.
Since my order was over $35.00 from Target, the delivery is free.
I gotta learn to stop bitching so much.
(On the other hand, no one would ever live in Johnston City who didn't have to. I mean, if the place were actively ugly, that would be an improvement.)
I dunno, Gares. Bitching can be a fun personal hobby, especially when you do it as creatively as you do. I might think about doubling down on the bitching.
I fear some of your readers will find your bitching hobby less entertaining than you do. But, as long as you don't need to rely in that for your income.... oh, wait...
The Italian Department of Tourism is going to LOVE you, my dear. Then again, after nine years, you've earned the right to voice your opinions. And it's not as if they're not well-supported.
There's a pronounced difference between living in a place and descending on it as a tourist. When you live in a place, you're there long enough to see it, warts and all. It's a more honest picture, which I prefer. Most people are tourists, so they hit the high points and miss the warts.
I think your perspective will transfer well to New York City. I'm looking forward to what you have to say about it.
It’s interesting that you feel that Italy fundamentally doesn’t want us. I live in London where we have a huge number of young Italians. The odds that your waiter in a restaurant (any restaurant) or a shop assistant helping you in a clothing boutique is Italian are remarkably high. I hear Italian in the street or on the underground all the time. The British are pretty welcoming towards them, I think. A few ugly incidents (publicized to death) right around the time of the Brexit referendum notwithstanding, the British, Londoners in particular, are remarkably tolerant of foreigners. And, of course, we have tons of jobs here. Staff shortages are endemic in the UK now, particularly in the hospitality industry. I think the British are particularly fond of Italians, because they have been programmed to think that Italy is a paradise on Earth. We have so many travel shows on tv about Italy, Italian history, Italian food, Italian everything that the chances of one being on at any random time you switch on your set are pretty high. And all these shows portray Italy exclusively in a super-positive, almost idyllic, light. And then there are all those feature films set in Tuscany. )) No wonder people expect Italy to be a garden of Eden. Many people don’t understand why so many Italians chose to come to rainy, grimy, grey Blighty. ))
I shared this article with my GF over coffee yesterday, and she had both of the reactions that you'd expect: 1.) yeah, I can totally see that (she's been to Italy previously), and 2.) holy shit! really?
This is some of your best writing; I also notice that you're more frequently using big-girl words as opposed to sailor words (tee-hee). I truly like the passage about New York being a "city of the mind".
You may now feel free to write "F you, Sean" in the reply!!
In bocca al lupo with New York. I'm a native and it just isn't what it was. I know everyone says that, but since 9/11 it feels as though it's been colonized by the rest of the country and has lost a lot of its New Yorkness. Plus the rapacious real estate industry has screwed everyone over, causing good places to close and banks/Starbucks/chains to open in their place. Rents are through the roof, and be prepared to spend $20 on a cocktail or a pitiful pour of wine.
You sound EXACTLY like John. He was born and raised in NYC and loves it like a brother. But he will be the first to admit it has been raped and colonized by property developers. The last time I was there, which was about ten years ago, I was appalled by the yogurt shops/banks/Starbucks epidemics.
But I also have a sneaking suspicion that NYC is changing yet again. That's the thing about that city. It never closes, and it never stands still.
Let's hope it's all for the good. My two adult daughters live there (we're retired and live in northern Umbria part-time and are clearing out our NY house. While my kids are Italian citizens, I don't expect them to live in the EU anytime soon.
Funny, I disagree with you on both Rome and New-York. I still adore Rome. I don’t live there, but I visit as often as I can, and stay in Centro storico. I was there just a fortnight ago, and it was as magical as ever. And New-York is my sweet home and always will be, even though I wasn’t born there, and don’t live there any more. I never found it draining, on the contrary, it was energizing (yes, it can be infuriating, but so can any place in the world). Anyway, by way of reference, I now live in London and have a place in Umbria. This is a good combo for me, although I don’t like London nearly as much as I loved Gotham. Umbria is a gentle and genteel place, where Italy’s drawbacks are not felt so acutely.
I love Umbria! We live there, too. There are no parts of Umbria that aren't wonderful. But a place in London AND Umbria pretty much gives you the best of both worlds, doesn't it? You see, I love London. Gotham, less so. Umbria, always.
I have found that the best way to get around Italian bureaucracy, at least at the local level, is befriend (or, even better, employ) a well-plugged local. Someone who has relatives and friends inside the comune, the questura, ASL, vigili of this and that, etc. ))
John's been here for thirty years. His Italy is impeccable, and he knows everybody. We can't go to Rome without running into people he knows. But...this is Italy. If you're in a comune that isn't run like well-oiled machinery, you get a less-than-favorable result. Sadly.
You’d think so, but after 12 years in London, I still don’t feel as much at home here as I used to in NYC. Maybe it’s just me. But moving back would make it much more difficult to travel to Umbria. A two-hour flight to Perugia for £20 isn’t something you can possibly hope to replicate from the US. As Dorothy Parker (or was it someone else?) said, “The best thing about London is Paris”. For me, it’s Perugia. ))
Puglia, Bari or Brindisi it's 7€ to London.
LOL! That SO sounds like something Parker would say!
It does, but it was actually Diana Vreeland (I googled).
Yeah, but...
My wife and I moved here and became permanent residents about a year and a half ago and things have been pretty smooth all things considered. The primary reason is that we are retired and don't have to find work. Not having money to support a reasonable Italian lifestyle would amplify all the inconveniences and perturbations that you describe so well. Amplify them into a song of so-long.
But there is also this: we live near a small bustling comune of about 17000 souls, in a frazione where people are property proud and friendly. We are of a certain age so we avoided living up a hill and we avoided living in a place where the population is shrinking as the younger folk depart for other places.
We have access to all manner of stores and services where we can provide for daily needs, and we're close to larger centers (Foligno, Perugia, Gubbio, Ancona) where we can find most other things we may want or need, the better to furnish our lives.
The point is, that the place where one choses to live in Italy is hugely important because the problems of the shrinking, ill governed, poorer places do not have the financial means of mitigating the worst of the things you list. In our locale, we drive around manifold potholes but we know eventually they will be leveled by a local crew who service the hundreds of miles of roads that stitch this comune together.
We we can work around store opening/closing hours, holidays etc. - mostly by means of doing other stuff when we can't shop. Yard work, desk work, napping...hell even a little hanky panky from time to time. We don't have to contend with the rigors of hill and stair climbs, and, in our case, the local bureaucracies are staffed with pretty competent people, because living here, they also have a life and need their lives to move along too.
Question: if you and John had ways and means of earning a good, stable income, would you be going to NYC?
ALL TRUE. Everything you just wrote is 100% on target. It does matter where you plant your tent poles. Question: did you just luck out or were you somehow able to divine the truth about these places before you moved there? Because it seems to me you made some very wise choices.
If John and I were able to earn a sufficient income, we would not be leaving. That said, he's a native New Yorker with a robust network of people there. Also, NYC is the center of the jazz universe. So, it makes sense for him. For me, less so, but I'll be closer to my kids, and that's a huge plus.
It all boils down to this: we are too young to retire and too old to work at McDonald's ;-)
When my daughter (about to turn 37) decided to come from Vancouver, Canada to go to school here she was 17. She attended the Universita per Stranieri, worked a while then got a degree at the University of Perugia. She met and married a man whose father was born in Gualdo Tadino and, although they returned to Canada where they bore two children, they returned here to live.
My wife and I realized that as we got older our trips to Italy would be fewer and fewer so we decided to uproot ourselves, already in our 70s, and move here. We ended up in Gualdo area because that's where they are. It just turned out to be as good as it is. If they were living somewhere else, that's where we'd be, and probably, if a good sized town was close by, just as happy.
I am slowly losing the bad habit of comparing the Italy we live in with what we had in Canada. One does this by becoming fatalistic and cynical in the Italian way, which is to say, we turn our things to that which we can do, and look for the humour in all our frustrations. Piano Piano is our adopted motto.
At the same time, while not rich by any means, we have enough to sustain a good and healthy lifestyle here, maybe better than we could afford in Canada, bearing in mind we are not ostentatious in any part of our lives. I feel badly that you and John were not able to make a go of it here, but I understand completely. You will feel the constant tug of Italy while you are gone, and you may surrender to it once you have ways and means. Maybe "will surrender" is a better way of putting it.
I will keep reading and responding to your beautiful posts.
I am so glad of your friendship, Vian. You are truly a "find and a keeper." And I am very familiar with the Gualdo Taldino area! John used to teach there. It's beautiful. In fact, I used to joke with John and say, "Oh, are you going to Walter Turkey?" The pun being "tachino" = turkey. Har har.
Look, I have every intention of coming back when we ARE retired and can enjoy the passive income one needs in order to survive here. That we have held on as long as we have, especially as creatives, feels like victory. Frankly, I don't know how we did it.
You're right about all of it, of course--I will feel the constant tug of Italy. I already do. I love this country. Life is full of ups and downs, hills and valleys. If I come out of it with a story, however, that's the whole point of life AND Cappuccino.
vian@casagama.it
331-785-1275
just in case
We did a lot of research before we picked the Spoleto area. We had criss-crossed Tuscany, Umbria and Marche. We adore Spoleto.
I would say the hills in Spoleto are daunting, but the hills in Amelia are just as daunting, and we don't have your elevators. What we do have is a community of remarkable expats, many of whom are artists, writers, directors, actors, etc. Few expats here don't have an impressive metier.
We should check out Amelia. We’ve never been.
Unless you have serious jobs already lined up? As bad as Italy is (and I can add to your list but won't) the US right now is a shit hole. No money here? Honey you are rich beyond your wildest dreams compared to how it will be stateside.
My friends regularly send me pictures of prices in the grocery store. September one of those plastic cartons of fresh spinach was 8.99. Last week 9.99 ON SALE. This was in Arizona where they grow this stuff so there is no transportation tax.
Housing. There is this ýoutube guy goes around NYC asks people what they pay in rent and then tours the apartments. 1800 to 2000 for an apartment with the EXACT SAME DIMENSIONS as a prison cell. 8x10 feet not meters. The 2k one is 10x12. Take a look at them. John's not big enough for 2? Probably a mansion compared yo US.
Taxes. Yes Italy's top rate is 43%. But we all know nobody pays that. First of all find me anyone in Italy with the exception of Tom Ford and Clooney who make 50k. Also that 23 to 43 %rate is inclusive.
Let me count the ways that 43% saves you money. Self employed in US 13% on top of income tax for social security. Work for a company they pay half you pay half. PLUS another 6% for Medicare. Oh did I forget health insurance? I worked for the post office. Not the 800 pound gorilla in the room its the 8000 pound gorilla. Largest private employer in the USA. My currently employed USPS friends? Their monthly premium average cost among all providers is 350 a month. Other companies? 500 a month. Self employed? 1000 a month even with Obama care. And that is why about 25% of Americans have no health coverage.
Even with the platinum plans. Deductibles and co-pays? Mine averaged $4000 a year. And the insurance company decides what I get to have in terms of care, not my doctor. That's with dual coverage. My husband's employer Gannet provided insurance too. Adding him to my plan and me to his proved cheaper than single premiums in terms of uncovered costs like those deductibles I mentioned. Our final years stateside I counted every penny spent on medical. Turns out we could have bought Cadillac every 7 years if we had Italian level health care costs.
Health care itself. HMOs stateside make ASL look like Mayo clinic (which doesn't take insurance BTW so it's truly rich and famous care).
My experience with HMOs is 50% of the medical staff is NOT Doctors and nurses. People seeing you? Writing prescriptions? They are Physicians assistants, nurse practitioners. A little fact that is carefully not emphasized. PPO plans same s**t different "doctors". Here at least you see a doctor!! Yes you may have to wait for a routine care item. But get a lump on your breast? 12 hours later mammogram and 12 days max you can be on an OR table. My sister in law? 12 weeks she finally had her surgery
Loneliness. I call it the 5 year syndrome. You go back home, everyone is thrilled to see you, they throw parties, "we will get together soon" then crickets. Dead crickets. Their lives have changed, they no longer include you. You will be ghosted except for the big 3. Christmas or New Years (not both) 4th of July, and Thanksgiving. No one meets for coffee or drinks.
I lived in Arizona one of those states people move to. You know sun 360 days a year, fruit dripping off trees? Within 5 years 50% of the people who move to Atizona leave.
Garbage have you been to NYC lately? Or any American city lately? There the "garbage" is human beings. There is homelessness in Italy. I am not blind to it. But compared to the US it is non existent. Literally fewer people live on the street in 3rd world countries.
Bureaucracy we expect it to work. And it does there. But who wants the only thing that functions to be Bureaucracy?
Finally and most horrifically gun violence. Last week a 6 year old shot his teacher. 31,000 school age children have experienced gun violence since Columbine. Washington Post this week.
The only thing cheap in America is gasoline and lives.
Everything you wrote is true. But there are no jobs for us here. None. So even if NYC is hell on earth, which I am perfectly prepared for it to be, the very fact of being able to get a job makes it the only "choice" we have. In truth, we don't have a choice. We don't want to go. We have to go.
That's the difference.
NYC will NOT be hell on Earth, it’s a fantastic. place. The only problem is that, from what I hear, it has not yet fully bounced back after the pandemic.
It's pretty much back to "normal" (whatever normal means). Though midtown office real estate is suffering, with most former office dwellers working remotely.
My NYC friends are telling me that the crime has edged up noticeably.
That is true, in some areas...but I've personally never felt threatened. As in any city, it pays to remain aware, keep valuables close (or at home), etc.
Neither has poor Italy! I just read today that NYC is planning to put a CASINO--a freaking casino!--on the top floor of Sak's Fifth Avenue. Now that weed is legal, too, it would seem that Manhattan is planning to live up to its reputation as Gotham ;-)
Nothing wrong with a properly regulated, legitimate casino. London has casinos.
"Properly regulated" being the two key words here ;-)
God I know this is true.
NYC is the furthest you can get from isolated American life, so at least there’s that.
I promise you, NYC isn't hell on earth. Anywhere you (the editorial "you") live will be as you make it. There are pros & cons to it (and everywhere else on the planet). Some love it; some hate it. It will be what "you" make of it. See you soon! 😊
Nailed it. Thank you. Just two additions:
1) healthcare costs: when I retired from teaching in 2015 my district was paying $1,500 a month for my family insurance premiums. But don't worry...state Republicans stepped in an required me to pay a larger portion of my insurance sucking $7,000 out of my salary that could have been spent in our local economy.
2) Last April (2022) I returned to the US for several months and was appalled at the prices in the grocery stores! Filling just the baby seat section of the cart cost me $80, with no meat in there. I can eat for two weeks on that amount of money in Italy. And there's been no significant price increases on my Conad since the beginning of the Russian invasion of Ukraine.
If you're in or close to a major city, that might very well be the case. But who knows? Maybe it's just my part of Umbria. All I can do is report on what's happening here.
It’s happening here, too. That’s why I’m grateful to be farming. There is no money in it, but you can always afford to eat.
When I return from Italy and its reasonably priced wine, it just KILLS me to pay the NYC prices for a cocktail/wine/prosecco. What we pay in NYC for one glass, would pay for an entire bottle (more likely, two) in Italy. The mark-up here is criminal.
How about coffee? A so-so cappuccino on UES set me back $4 back in 2019. And it was served in a paper cup.
I don't know - I don't drink coffee (hate it), but Starbucks is called "Fourbucks" for a reason, I guess!
I dread the prospect of US coffee. DREAD IT.
Ha! Well, you'll likely have your own machine, and can buy the best you choose.
From your mouth to goddess's ears.
Right on about the music scene and the Kafka-esce bureaucracy. I think I’m a bit more forgiving after 20 years because I’ve also seen the other side of the coin many times, and don’t find the States much better. I’m also a citizen, and less marginalized.
Having lived years Rome also gives me more perspective, so I see it as a more complex situation. But you nailed a couple of my least favorite things about it.
I personally love that mom and pop shops give zero fucks about accommodating people. They work really hard and make a choice to earn less but maintain a quality of life. I respect that and try to apply it to my own work as much as possible. It can cause headaches, but I have learned to think more like then, meaning I expect to find stuff closed and am happily surprised when it is not 😅
The dirt bikes are ridiculous, but so are the car sound systems in the States. For me 6 of one, half a dozen of the other.
I have met lots of folks who try to clean public spaces, only to get shot down by local politicians because no one will take the garbage they collected. There are serious barriers to civility, but it’s the system mostly (one where no one has the money for trash disposal because it is so expensive to deal with for towns and cities) and a minority of bad actors, not the average Italian. Cheap trash disposal also has bad consequences (like aluminium cans going into garbage dumps in the States), so, again, I see both sides.
Maybe this is why people reacted so strongly to your piece: when you look deeper, Italians do so much more good than bad. And you’d be hard pressed to find a culture with no faults.
But you are grieving, my dear, and if pointing out the warts on your soon to be ex-boyfriend’s face helps even one bit, then I’m all for it 🤗
LOL! You're funny. Yes, absolutely grieving. But these are views I've held for a long long time now and have nothing to do with grieving. I mention how much I love the mom-and-pop stores in the complement to this Cappuccino, which you can read here: https://cappuccino.substack.com/p/here-are-the-12-things-i-will-miss
Keep in mind that unlike you, I am not a dual passport holder. Neither is John. We're not Lampedusa, far from it, but we aren't exactly privileged either. And to be fair, I received strong support for the article, too. I just didn't expect what attacks there were to be so personal. Nothing I wrote couldn't be backed up with receipts, which is why I wrote it.
I think farming is smart, BTW. We have no idea what's coming, especially in a country that's struggling anyway, and "just being able to eat" is no small thing. At least your tillage will bear fruit, dear Rachel.
I have to admit that as much as I would have loved to live in Italy, over the past many years I have learned about the horrific Italian bureaucracy. I am not a patient person to begin with, by any means (perhaps that's why I thrive in NYC!), so trying to deal with all of the paperwork required to get residency for an ER visa or any other type of visa or even citizenship (for which I learned I don't qualify after all) was eschewed long ago.
The Schengen Agreement's edict of 90 days in/out works for me! And because I am impatient, the bureaucracy of trying to get even the simplest things done would make me want to go postal. Spending several months there at a time has been wonderful, but coming back home to the US with all of its efficient conveniences is heaven. I intend to have the best of both worlds in the future.
You made the right decision. It took me a LONG LONG time to clear the miasma from my adoring eyes, but ... yeah. For non-Italians, Italy is sometimes best enjoyed in small manageable chunks of time, like pie. NYC is draining; Italy is restorative. But too long a period spent in Italy, and it no longer becomes restorative, but draining.
I think you made a wise choice.
Yes, but I can only wonder what’s it like for an Italian to obtain a work permit and permanent residence in America.
In fact, that’s why I mentioned my privilege before. It’s not lost on me that it is a luxury to be a dual citizen and not have my everyday life (or love life) conditioned on a piece of paper.
I’m pulling for you and John - and hope someday to come visit you in the Big Apple 💕
We're hoping to land a place with room for a pullout couch--in which case, you will always have a place to stay when you're visiting, dear Rachel.
The no-see-ums bit gave me a serious case of the wiggins (the Brits might say "collywobbles.") I've been snarling for days because I had to order a bag of adult cat-chow to be delivered, rather than find it available in the stores.
Since my order was over $35.00 from Target, the delivery is free.
I gotta learn to stop bitching so much.
(On the other hand, no one would ever live in Johnston City who didn't have to. I mean, if the place were actively ugly, that would be an improvement.)
I dunno, Gares. Bitching can be a fun personal hobby, especially when you do it as creatively as you do. I might think about doubling down on the bitching.
I fear some of your readers will find your bitching hobby less entertaining than you do. But, as long as you don't need to rely in that for your income.... oh, wait...
That was pretty snarky, Robin. Are you sure you want to have said that?
The Italian Department of Tourism is going to LOVE you, my dear. Then again, after nine years, you've earned the right to voice your opinions. And it's not as if they're not well-supported.
There's a pronounced difference between living in a place and descending on it as a tourist. When you live in a place, you're there long enough to see it, warts and all. It's a more honest picture, which I prefer. Most people are tourists, so they hit the high points and miss the warts.
I think your perspective will transfer well to New York City. I'm looking forward to what you have to say about it.
It’s interesting that you feel that Italy fundamentally doesn’t want us. I live in London where we have a huge number of young Italians. The odds that your waiter in a restaurant (any restaurant) or a shop assistant helping you in a clothing boutique is Italian are remarkably high. I hear Italian in the street or on the underground all the time. The British are pretty welcoming towards them, I think. A few ugly incidents (publicized to death) right around the time of the Brexit referendum notwithstanding, the British, Londoners in particular, are remarkably tolerant of foreigners. And, of course, we have tons of jobs here. Staff shortages are endemic in the UK now, particularly in the hospitality industry. I think the British are particularly fond of Italians, because they have been programmed to think that Italy is a paradise on Earth. We have so many travel shows on tv about Italy, Italian history, Italian food, Italian everything that the chances of one being on at any random time you switch on your set are pretty high. And all these shows portray Italy exclusively in a super-positive, almost idyllic, light. And then there are all those feature films set in Tuscany. )) No wonder people expect Italy to be a garden of Eden. Many people don’t understand why so many Italians chose to come to rainy, grimy, grey Blighty. ))
I shared this article with my GF over coffee yesterday, and she had both of the reactions that you'd expect: 1.) yeah, I can totally see that (she's been to Italy previously), and 2.) holy shit! really?
This is some of your best writing; I also notice that you're more frequently using big-girl words as opposed to sailor words (tee-hee). I truly like the passage about New York being a "city of the mind".
You may now feel free to write "F you, Sean" in the reply!!